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	<title>Comments on: Digital Inclusion &#8211; Carrot or Stick?</title>
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		<title>By: Emma Solomon</title>
		<link>http://dnc.digitalunite.com/2009/12/03/digital-inclusion-carrot-or-stick/comment-page-1/#comment-1110</link>
		<dc:creator>Emma Solomon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Jan 2010 12:50:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dnc.digitalunite.com/?p=542#comment-1110</guid>
		<description>Yes Alys, I think what we need to redefine - with Silver Surfers&#039; Day in partic - is who it&#039;s designed for. &#039;Older people&#039; are not as you suggest one homogenous group, anymore than &#039;younger people&#039; are. Silver Surfers&#039; Day is about supporting local people, organisations, intermediaries (such as Hants CC) to engage with older people in their communities around digital technology and skills. SSD is the catch-all, universal phrase that says &#039;older people&#039; - but what that means in terms of 65+, 75+, 85+ is also open for you the intermediaries to interpret as you see fit. What we are all *trying* to say through this one phrase is &#039;special attention for older people who would like to learn about/ be introduced to digital technology at a pace and in a way that takes account of their lack of experience and/or understanding/context and the fact they may be out of education and/or the workforce and so not running into digital technology in the same every day way the rest of us are&#039;.   It&#039;s hard to say that snappily! Anyway, lots more to say here I am sure, and all very helpful for us as we try to make sure we are doing the best we can in working with and engaging with older people and their intermediaries. Thanks Alys!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes Alys, I think what we need to redefine &#8211; with Silver Surfers&#8217; Day in partic &#8211; is who it&#8217;s designed for. &#8216;Older people&#8217; are not as you suggest one homogenous group, anymore than &#8216;younger people&#8217; are. Silver Surfers&#8217; Day is about supporting local people, organisations, intermediaries (such as Hants CC) to engage with older people in their communities around digital technology and skills. SSD is the catch-all, universal phrase that says &#8216;older people&#8217; &#8211; but what that means in terms of 65+, 75+, 85+ is also open for you the intermediaries to interpret as you see fit. What we are all *trying* to say through this one phrase is &#8216;special attention for older people who would like to learn about/ be introduced to digital technology at a pace and in a way that takes account of their lack of experience and/or understanding/context and the fact they may be out of education and/or the workforce and so not running into digital technology in the same every day way the rest of us are&#8217;.   It&#8217;s hard to say that snappily! Anyway, lots more to say here I am sure, and all very helpful for us as we try to make sure we are doing the best we can in working with and engaging with older people and their intermediaries. Thanks Alys!</p>
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		<title>By: Alys Blakeway</title>
		<link>http://dnc.digitalunite.com/2009/12/03/digital-inclusion-carrot-or-stick/comment-page-1/#comment-1109</link>
		<dc:creator>Alys Blakeway</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 23:19:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dnc.digitalunite.com/?p=542#comment-1109</guid>
		<description>The internet generation is already with us. Time has moved on since Silver Surfers&#039; Day was set up, and now most over 50s (including me)use the net and teach other people how to use it e.g. given the age profile of local government, I bet most of my hants e-learning colleagues are over 50. (They won an award recently - see blog). So I&#039;m sure you don&#039;t mean to be patronising but it is annoying when people assume over 50s are the same as their over-80 parents!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The internet generation is already with us. Time has moved on since Silver Surfers&#8217; Day was set up, and now most over 50s (including me)use the net and teach other people how to use it e.g. given the age profile of local government, I bet most of my hants e-learning colleagues are over 50. (They won an award recently &#8211; see blog). So I&#8217;m sure you don&#8217;t mean to be patronising but it is annoying when people assume over 50s are the same as their over-80 parents!</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Bell</title>
		<link>http://dnc.digitalunite.com/2009/12/03/digital-inclusion-carrot-or-stick/comment-page-1/#comment-1096</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Bell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 14:13:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dnc.digitalunite.com/?p=542#comment-1096</guid>
		<description>I am 100% with Judith on this score.

As the current &#039;Internet Generation&#039; grows up, what the government is proposing will happen naturally.  However, trying to suddenly force it upon genuinely technophobic older people will not only be counter productive, it will cause huge stress in a group of people the government is supposedly trying to help.

This is a bad idea!

The end result would be they would have to get someone else to assist them, thereby exchanging the savings in costs to become different actual costs in other areas. Alternatively, older people would simply ignore the requirement to complete forms in this fashion.  This would result in unfilled paperwork, lost benefits, lower standards of living and less help provided to this most vulnerable group of people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am 100% with Judith on this score.</p>
<p>As the current &#8216;Internet Generation&#8217; grows up, what the government is proposing will happen naturally.  However, trying to suddenly force it upon genuinely technophobic older people will not only be counter productive, it will cause huge stress in a group of people the government is supposedly trying to help.</p>
<p>This is a bad idea!</p>
<p>The end result would be they would have to get someone else to assist them, thereby exchanging the savings in costs to become different actual costs in other areas. Alternatively, older people would simply ignore the requirement to complete forms in this fashion.  This would result in unfilled paperwork, lost benefits, lower standards of living and less help provided to this most vulnerable group of people.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian Retson</title>
		<link>http://dnc.digitalunite.com/2009/12/03/digital-inclusion-carrot-or-stick/comment-page-1/#comment-1095</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian Retson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 12:04:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dnc.digitalunite.com/?p=542#comment-1095</guid>
		<description>I agree whole-heartedly with Bob and Judith. I too have years of experience helping older people change their lives through Digital Inclusion, but it is not for everyone. Some years ago scientific research proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that it would dramatically reduce road deaths if, instead of air-bags, cars were fitted with a sharp spike in the steering wheel. Great in theory but...
For some of our case studies see www.leicscareonline.org.uk/careonline_people</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree whole-heartedly with Bob and Judith. I too have years of experience helping older people change their lives through Digital Inclusion, but it is not for everyone. Some years ago scientific research proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that it would dramatically reduce road deaths if, instead of air-bags, cars were fitted with a sharp spike in the steering wheel. Great in theory but&#8230;<br />
For some of our case studies see <a href="http://www.leicscareonline.org.uk/careonline_people">http://www.leicscareonline.org.uk/careonline_people</a></p>
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		<title>By: Gill Adams</title>
		<link>http://dnc.digitalunite.com/2009/12/03/digital-inclusion-carrot-or-stick/comment-page-1/#comment-1094</link>
		<dc:creator>Gill Adams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Dec 2009 22:59:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dnc.digitalunite.com/?p=542#comment-1094</guid>
		<description>effectively,this would create millions of dysfuntional adults - people who had hitherto been perfectly functional and independent. They would justifiably feel angry and disenfranchised. Not constructive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>effectively,this would create millions of dysfuntional adults &#8211; people who had hitherto been perfectly functional and independent. They would justifiably feel angry and disenfranchised. Not constructive.</p>
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		<title>By: Emma</title>
		<link>http://dnc.digitalunite.com/2009/12/03/digital-inclusion-carrot-or-stick/comment-page-1/#comment-1093</link>
		<dc:creator>Emma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Dec 2009 20:35:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dnc.digitalunite.com/?p=542#comment-1093</guid>
		<description>Judith, I think your comments are all entirely valid and very well made.

When MLF gets to your age, someone else will be wielding another sort of stick I would imagine. And I would also imagine she may respond more positively if it were more of a carrot!


I would think in general if we took time to understand other peoples&#039; situations and &#039;real worlds&#039; a little better we may find more creative ways of working with them to solve all sorts of &#039;issues&#039;. And that will always be true, generation through generation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Judith, I think your comments are all entirely valid and very well made.</p>
<p>When MLF gets to your age, someone else will be wielding another sort of stick I would imagine. And I would also imagine she may respond more positively if it were more of a carrot!</p>
<p>I would think in general if we took time to understand other peoples&#8217; situations and &#8216;real worlds&#8217; a little better we may find more creative ways of working with them to solve all sorts of &#8216;issues&#8217;. And that will always be true, generation through generation.</p>
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		<title>By: Judith Taylor</title>
		<link>http://dnc.digitalunite.com/2009/12/03/digital-inclusion-carrot-or-stick/comment-page-1/#comment-1092</link>
		<dc:creator>Judith Taylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Dec 2009 09:45:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dnc.digitalunite.com/?p=542#comment-1092</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m back again with a comment made by a friend of mine who has elderly parents who are not &#039;silver surfers&#039;:

&quot;What it would mean for people like me, is that I would have to take over everything for my parents (aged 86 and 85 with no computer and no wish to have one) where finance is concerned thus removing their independence and a great deal of their privacy and dignity.&quot;

Think again, Ms Lane Fox</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m back again with a comment made by a friend of mine who has elderly parents who are not &#8216;silver surfers&#8217;:</p>
<p>&#8220;What it would mean for people like me, is that I would have to take over everything for my parents (aged 86 and 85 with no computer and no wish to have one) where finance is concerned thus removing their independence and a great deal of their privacy and dignity.&#8221;</p>
<p>Think again, Ms Lane Fox</p>
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		<title>By: Judith Taylor</title>
		<link>http://dnc.digitalunite.com/2009/12/03/digital-inclusion-carrot-or-stick/comment-page-1/#comment-1091</link>
		<dc:creator>Judith Taylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 08:56:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dnc.digitalunite.com/?p=542#comment-1091</guid>
		<description>This made my hackles rise, and I don’t like getting angry over breakfast.  Those who know me (a runner-up in the 2008 Silver Surfer Awards), will know that I started to use a computer 10 years ago aged 71, and that now I could not live without it - it is my magic carpet.  But that does not mean that I want to see non-users forced to go on line, at risk if they don’t of being in default on payments or licenses that are legal requirements.

In addition to training, would government provide an adequate and reliable broadband service, buy computers for all those who don’t have them, pay for their ISP and security subscriptions, and for printers and the peripherals.  My guess is that, like me, many older users would be confused and daunted by online billing, form filling etc, and would want to print everything off.   Indeed, I think many people would be panicked by the mere idea of it.

It doesn’t sound like a nanny state to me, it sounds like a big bully state.  Government has a duty to provide the services that people need, not to coerce them into using services they do not want.  For goodness sake, at least where the retired are concerned, leave us in peace to embrace such technologies as, individually, we feel able for and are comfortable with.  If some of us feel that a computer would be an alien and unfriendly presence in our lives, we are entitled to be allowed to live without them.  When our generation has gone, and those who remain have all been familiar with computers from childhood, perhaps that will be the time for Martha Lane Fox to wield her stick.

Grrrr!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This made my hackles rise, and I don’t like getting angry over breakfast.  Those who know me (a runner-up in the 2008 Silver Surfer Awards), will know that I started to use a computer 10 years ago aged 71, and that now I could not live without it &#8211; it is my magic carpet.  But that does not mean that I want to see non-users forced to go on line, at risk if they don’t of being in default on payments or licenses that are legal requirements.</p>
<p>In addition to training, would government provide an adequate and reliable broadband service, buy computers for all those who don’t have them, pay for their ISP and security subscriptions, and for printers and the peripherals.  My guess is that, like me, many older users would be confused and daunted by online billing, form filling etc, and would want to print everything off.   Indeed, I think many people would be panicked by the mere idea of it.</p>
<p>It doesn’t sound like a nanny state to me, it sounds like a big bully state.  Government has a duty to provide the services that people need, not to coerce them into using services they do not want.  For goodness sake, at least where the retired are concerned, leave us in peace to embrace such technologies as, individually, we feel able for and are comfortable with.  If some of us feel that a computer would be an alien and unfriendly presence in our lives, we are entitled to be allowed to live without them.  When our generation has gone, and those who remain have all been familiar with computers from childhood, perhaps that will be the time for Martha Lane Fox to wield her stick.</p>
<p>Grrrr!</p>
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